Ukraine is not attacking Russian civilians - didn't ask permission to attack civilians - would be very illegal - shoddy reporting from the New York Times - running Russian propaganda without checking
I need to fact check this because it is leading people I help to be unnecessarily scared. Ukraine, unlike Israel and Russia, keeps to the law of armed conduct. So you get a VERY SKEWED IDEA ABOUT HOW WARS ARE FOUGHT FROM RUSSIA AND ISRAEL.
Ukraine DOES NOT TARGET CIVILIANS which is VERY ILLEGAL.
We have two examples in the news of armies that are not behaving like a professional army which give you a false idea about how war is conducted according to the modern international law of armed conduct.
Russia IS deliberately attacking civilian infrastruture power stations in Ukraine not directly needed for the war - not legal
Russia does target civilians by firing bombs at places like railway stations and hotels - not legal
Similarly unprofessional conduct is also happening in Israel.
Israel blockades food, fuel, water and electricity and drops bombs that often destroy hospitals - disproportionate and not legal if they are an occupying power (committed to provide medical help and food aid to non combatants in the population).
Israel says it is not targeting civilians but it causes disproportionate damage often killing 10 or 20 or more civilians to kill one Hamas fighter or just for the chance of possibly killing a Hamas fighter.
As we’ll see both these examples are against all four of the main principles of the law of armed conduct.
I don’t want to get distracted talking in depth about Israel - whether and to what extent what they do is illegal depends on which of the Geneva protocols you go by, and also about whether they are an occupying power which they claim they are not. And of course they have a legal case against them in the International Court of Justice which has to go through legal process
For details see:
But the main thing to be really clear about is Ukraine DOES NOT DO ANY OF THESE THINGS. It is not even suspected or indicted of such charges. Russian civilians can be sure that Ukraine will not deliberately target them and unless they work in close proximity with soldiers they are not at risk.
Russian civilians can be hit accidentally in a targeted attack at a military HQ or if they are close to Russian artillery when the artillery unit is hit and so on. But they are not intentional targets.
This is not about Ukraine being perfect or saints. Ukraine is just behaving like a normal professional army by not targeting civilians. It is how any professional army will operate in a modern war.
Ukraine, or the US and other NATO armies would
- NOT have bombed the hospitals.
- NOT have cut off supply of food, water, electricity, fuel and medicine to Gaza Strip.
- NOT have used big bombs on civilian areas in cities
So the NY Times did a shoddy bit of reporting when they shared this graphic which so many believed. It was NOT an attack by Ukraine.
The background here is that the Russians all through the war for some reason have often accidentally dropped bombs in Russian territory from their bombers on bombing raids in Ukraine. This is very well documented.
They often land harmlessly in fields but sometimes they fall in cities. This bomb hit the apartment from the Russian side. It was far too big a bomb for a Ukrainian drone attack. And the experts are pretty certain it was a glide bomb that a bomber must have dropped by mistake flying over Belgorod on the way to drop it on Ukraine.
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Text on graphic: This photograph featured by the New York Times is VERY MISLEADING and RUSSIAN PROPAGANDA.
This shows the aftermath of a Russian glide bomb that one of its bombers accidentally dropped on a Russian apartment block in Belgorod.
Ukraine does NOT target Russian civilians - it wants permission to hit legitimate defensive targets in Russia. Such as the artillery firing shells at Vovschank from just over the border 5 kilometers away .
Tweet shown in screenshot: Jimmy Rushton (@JimmySecUK) on X
Open source analysis: Oliver Alexander (@OAlexanderDK) on X
The photograph is of a bomb that hit an apartment from the direction of Russia and a very big bomb matching a glide bomb.
The UK Ministry of Defence on 11th May said there were 20 such incidents in Belgorod oblast alone in March through to mid Ma
It has been reported that a Russian fighter aircraft accidentally released a FAB-500 munition on a civilian area in Belgorod, Russia on 04 May 2024. The Belgorod Regional Governor Vyacheslav Gladkov confirmed the explosion and damage on Razdobarkina street, Belgorod without identifying the cause. 30 houses and 10 cars were damaged, with five individuals requiring hospital care, illustrating the destructive power of the munition.
This is not an isolated incident. On 18 February a FAB-250 was reportedly released on Soloti in the Belgorod area which led to the evacuation of 150 residents.
Media outlets suggest that such discharges are fairly common with 20 lost munitions accidentally dropped in the Belgorod region alone between March to April 2024. These instances indicate Russia's continued inability to successfully employ their munitions on intended targets. Such errors have destructive and lethal consequences for the Russian population.
This seems to be due to defects with the low cost glide bomb kit that converts a dumb bomb into a precision glide bombs.
These bombs have been falling on Russian soil since April 2023. This shows all the glide bombs that hit targets in Russia. They are all close to the border with Ukraine and what may have happened is that they dropped them at the right place to fly over to Ukraine but they malfunction and hit targets in Russia instead.
This map is from the Washington Post article:
. Russia’s devastating glide bombs keep falling on its own territory
This is the first one to explode, April 21, 2023, confirmed by official sources in Russia, it made a crater 65 feet wide.
This is about a likely explanation. The kits are low cost made of cheap materials. A few percent fail. There seems to be some failsafe mechanism that prevents them from detonating if the mechanism goes wrong. But sometimes this mechanism fails and they detonate in Russia.
This may be because the wings don’t popout properly and so can’t glide it to the correct target.
Ruslan Leviev is, a military expert with the Conflict Intelligence Group which has been tracking Russia’s military activities in Ukraine since 2014. He sai
“According to our estimates, only a fraction of these bombs fail, so it doesn’t affect the practical effectiveness of this weapon, no matter how cynical that may sound.
Unlike Western high-precision bombs, the UMPK kits are produced relatively cheaply and in large quantities, using civilian electronics, where reliability requirements are much lower.
… One of our theories for these malfunctions is the shortage of components responsible for the bomb wings activation”
For more on this see the Washington Post article:
. Russia’s devastating glide bombs keep falling on its own territory
YOU CAN GET A FIRST IDEA OF THIS BLOG POST BY READING JUST THE TITLES OF THE SECTIONS AND LOOKING AT THE GRAPHICS
I design my blog posts so that the titles are like mini abstracts, they summarize what the section says. So you can just read the titles of each section and give a first idea.
UKRAINE HAS USED US HARM ANTI-RADAR MISSILES AGAINST TARGETS IN RUSSIA SINCE OCTOBER 2022 - AND PATRIOT TO SHOOT DOWN FIGHTER JETS AND ATTACK HELICOPTERS OVER RUSSIA SINCE MAY 2023 - AND RUSSIA DOES NOT ATTACK THE USA AND NEVER WILL - IT JUST IGNORES THESE EVENTS IN THE RUSSIAN NEWS
Weapons suppliers are not combatants.
It may help to know that Ukraine already used some US weapons against targets in Russia since 2022. And of course Russia didn't attack NATO.
Ukraine has been using HARM anti-radar missiles against targets in Russia at least since October 2022. They home in on radar signals and destroy the radar systems. This is from 22nd October 2022 and it hit Belgorod airport which Russia uses to target Ukraine.
TWEET A Russian SAM system getting hit by a Ukrainian missile - probably a HARM anti-radiation missile - at Belgorod airport, Russia.🔥Jimmy Rushton (@JimmySecUK) on X
🔥Jimmy Rushton (@JimmySecUK) on X
They have been using Patriot air defences to shoot down fighter jets and helicopters over Belgorod oblast at least since May 2023, first story here with the German supplied Patriot air defence system:
Two fighter jets and three helicopters, may 2023, confirmed in November 2023.
TWEET STARTS Rob is completely right with his assumption. Already in July 2023, we knew it was the (first) German-delivered Patriot battery who shot down the two fighter jets and three helicopters inside Russia back in May 2023.
This was first officially confirmed in an interview with Yuri Ihnat, the then spokesperson for the Ukrainian Air Force, which was published in November 2023.
The US also has no restrictions on using their Patriot against targets flying towards Ukraine from Russia.
They have to permit this. A hypersonic missile the Khinzal headed for Karkhiv flies at 12,350km/h or 3.43 km / second faster than a hypervelocity bullet. Kinzhal Hypersonic Missile, Russia
It can travel from the Ukraine border to the center of Karkhiv which is about 34 km in about 10 seconds. So it is absurd to require Ukraine to wait until it crossed the Ukraine border when they can see it is fired directly at Karkhiv city.
WHAT JENS STOLTENBERG SAID - THAT THIS IS JUST UKRAINE’S LEGITIMATE RIGHT FOR SELF-DEFENSE TO FIRE ACROSS THE BORDER WHEN AN INVADING COUNTRY MAKES ITS BORDER INTO THE FRONT LINE IN THE WAR
Summary of what Jens Stoltenberg says based on his transcript:
1. Allies need to lift some restrictions on weapons given to Ukraine now that fighting is going on close to the border in Karkhiv.
2. It is very hard for Ukraine to defend itself if they are not permitted to use these weapons against targets in Russia.
3. Ukraine has the right to defend itself and that includes striking targets in Russian territory.
4. Some allies have already lifted this restriction including the UK and it is time for them all to lift it.
5. The US is the most important ally that needs to lift it.
6. In places in Karkhiv, the border between Russia and Ukraine is also the battlefield front line
7. If you don't give Ukraine permission to fire weapons over to the Russian side of the front line you make it far harder for Ukraine to defend itself.
8. Self defence is enshrined in the UN charter. It is legal and legitimate and NATO allies are helping Ukraine to uphold that right.
9. This should include the ability to hit legitimate defensive targets in Russian territory
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Text on graphic: Self-defense is enshrined in the UN charter. It's legal it's legitimate and we are helping Ukraine with upholding that right and that should include the ability to also strike targets on Russian territory when they are military legitimate targets we're talking about.
CIVILIAN OBJECTS AND CIVILIANS ARE PROTECTED
It may help to say a bit more about what are legitimate defensive targets.
Article 52 - General protection of civilian objects
1. Civilian objects shall not be the object of attack or of reprisals. Civilian objects are all objects which are not military objectives as defined in paragraph 2.
2. Attacks shall be limited strictly to military objectives. In so far as objects are concerned, military objectives are limited to those objects which by their nature, location, purpose or use make an effective contribution to military action and whose total or partial destruction, capture or neutralization, in the circumstances ruling at the time, offers a definite military advantage.
3. In case of doubt whether an object which is normally dedicated to civilian purposes, such as a place of worship, a house or other dwelling or a school, is being used to make an effective contribution to military action, it shall be presumed not to be so used.
That is under the 1976 protocol I of the Geneva convention which Russia ratified.
The oil refineries are a sensitive area and I wouldn't expect them to use the stormshadow against an oil refinery although they are legitimate targets in the sense that they finance the war. Everything else then can't see UK / France etc having any concerns about them.
They could attack
missile depots and missile factories if there are any within range of the missiles, those are very clear. So long as the factory is essential to the war.
E.g. if it is a factory for making Khinzal missiles or for making tanks. Ukraine has already hit several such during the war. And those are not gray area at all.
The oil refineries are more gray area, things like that need to be decided case by case.
Wikipedia gives as a gray area example “The girl that makes the thing that drills the hole that holds the ring that drives the rod that turns the knob that works the thing-ummy-bob”
This is a Gracie Fields WW2 song. As you get more remote from directly involved the more gray area it is. For instance it would likely be illegal to target a factory that makes parts some of which are used for the Kinzal and some of them used for civilian purposes.
. Gracie Fields - The Thing-Ummy-Bob lyrics
FOUR PRINCIPLES OF THE LAW OF ARMED CONDUCT TO PROTECT CIVILIANS
They also have to respect the four principles of the law of armed conduct (which summarizes the complex international law).
(1) Distinction – to distinguish between the civilian population and combatants and between civilian objects and military objectives and direct operations only against military objectives.”
(2) Proportionality – Loss of life and damage to property incidental to attacks must not be excessive in relation to the military advantage
(3) Military Necessity – “…[E]very injury done to the enemy, even though permitted by the rules, is excusable only so far as it is absolutely necessary; everything beyond that is criminal.”
(4) Unnecessary Suffering – “It is prohibited to employ weapons, projectiles and materials and methods of warfare of a nature to cause superfluous injury or unnecessary suffering.”
. Online training on the Law of Armed Conflict for non-State actors
(slightly shortened the first two)
See also
. Fundamental principles of IHL
UKRAINE KEEPS TO THE UN CHARTER CAREFULLY AND THE RULES ON SELF DEFENCE, NEVER TAKES EVEN A METER OF RUSSIAN TERRITORY
Ukraine always stop at the 2014 border with Russia in their advances.
Two years ago, 16th May 2022, the Ukrainians pushed Russia back away from Karkhiv city and reached the border with Belgorod oblast. They carried a Ukrainian post with them and put it in the ground at the same point as the international border iwth Russia. Story about it here: ukrainian-troops-defending-kharkiv-reach-state-border-with-russia-governor-2022-05-16
Text on graphic: Ukrainian soldiers replacing its former border post with Russia after liberating part of Kharkiv oblast on May 16 2022.
Unlike the counterattacks by Canada in the 1812 war when the USA invaded Canada to “liberate” it from the British, Ukraine ALWAYS stops at the international border between Russia and Ukraine. It never tries to take even 1 meter of Russian territory.
Back then Ukraine had an opportunity if it so wished to try to push a bit further into Russia and take even a few 10s of meters of Russian territory and it didn't do that.
They do this to comply with international law. So long as Ukraine doesn’t take any Russian territory then under the UN charter it is not an invader and has every right to defend itself against Russia’s illegal attack.
If Ukraine took even one square meter of Russian territory intentionally then both sides would be breaking the UN charter.
So Ukraine never takes any Russian territory. You get stories sometimes about Russian rebels that crossed over into Ukraine to fight against Russia early in the war and sometimes cross back over to Belgorod and capture a small village or two. They do NOT capture this village for Ukraine. They capture it symbolically for the Russian rebels in Belgorod oblast. They usually return to Ukraine after a day or two.
If that was Ukraine it would be as illegal as Russia’s invasion even though it’s small scale. There are sometimes questions about how much Ukraine knew about these activities. They don’t try to stop them but they are not in support of them.
Nothing like that is happening right now in Kharkiv oblast it was entirely started by Russia.
WE TAKE NUMEROUS MEASURES TO PREVENT A WORLD WAR - THE UN WAS SET UP TO PREVENT A WORLD WAR
There are numerous measures taken to prevent a world war. At the time of WW2 we didn't even have the United Nations. The UN was SET UP TO PREVENT A WORLD WAR
QUOTE As World War II was about to end in 1945, nations were in ruins, and the world wanted peace. Representatives of 50 countries gathered at the United Nations Conference on International Organization in San Francisco, California from 25 April to 26 June 1945. For the next two months, they proceeded to draft and then sign the UN Charter, which created a new international organization, the United Nations, which, it was hoped, would prevent another world war like the one they had just lived through.
We have the Geneva conventions, the International Court of Justice - Wikipedia
Then there are the treaties. There are the deconfliction lines. There are the many measures to make sure that humans are in the loop at all times for nukes, to prevent any possibility of an accidental use. Many people think nukes themselves prevented a world war. There's NATO. That was created in 1949 and it provided collective security, which Europe never had before.
. Milestones in the History of U.S. Foreign Relations
All these many meetings we have, different groups, the UN Security council, the NATO countries working together what to do etc. None of that existed before WW2.
Then countries are far more dependent on each other than back then. Just the disruption of the grain exports through the Black Sea caused problems globally even though we never had any shortage of grain globally.
We are far more secure. People are healthier, live longer. We have much more communication globally than anyone could even have imagined was possible back then. What we are doing now, typing into computers and someone the far side of the world reads it almost instantly - that would have seemed a fantasy back then. That helps us be much more aware of what is going on in the world.
There is no need to EVER have another war. And many get the impression MISTAKENLY that the longer you have without a world war the more likely it gets. The opposite. The longer without a world war the LESS likely. If all the information you have is the number of years without a world war, the more years, the less likely.
But it is far more safe than that because we have a huge amount of attention to it.
You can ignore all the bluffs, behind the scenes people are very careful to avoid larger wars.
SEE ALSO
Most of this is an extract from my longer:
See also my
DISABLED COMMENTS - WHEN FIRST POSTED
This is a post that might get comments from people who just read the title, and don't read the post itself and those can scare the people I help with their many mistaken statements that are often already debunked in the post they comment on - which they don’t even read.
This has happened so often that I now disable comments when I first do blog posts likely to attract comments by people who don’t read the article.
I then usually re-enable comments after giving time for it to drop out of people’s news feeds for Quora or from Google search results.
CONTACT ME VIA PM OR ON FACEBOOK OR EMAIL THE BEST WAY TO CONTACT ME AS I DON’T GET NOTIFICATIONS FOR MANY COMMENTS ON MY POSTS
If you need to talk to me about something do contact me it is often far better to do so via private / direct messaging because Quora often fails to notify me of comment replies.
You can Direct Message my profile (then More >> messages).
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SHORT DEBUNKS (NEW)
I have just started a new page called “short debunks”. This has all the substantial debunks I do for the Facebook group. As you see I do many more of these, often ten a day, far too many to write them all up as blog posts., It only has the most recent short debunks, it would take ages to update it with older ones.
But if there is something scaring you in the news you may find I have debunked it here already.