How to talk to people who don’t listen, contradict, and argue - on COVID or climate change, politics, and many other things - Mike Ryan of the WHO
This is an extract from a WHO live social media Q/A where Mike Ryan gave useful tips on how to handle this situation most of us meet every day where you can easily get caught up in what he calls a “slugfest” of firing facts at each other.
There is a better way of doing it involving listening to concerns, helping them to access good information, and gentle persuasion, gradually flooding the space with good information. Maybe you “win” fewer arguments this way - but does that really matter?
As usual I will add short summaries in simpler direct speech for mildly autistic readers.
This infographic may also help.
From: The bumper Toby Morris & Siouxsie Wiles Covid-19 box set
Dr Mike Ryan answers questions about it, 45:42 into this video
Alexander Kuzmanovic: thank you very much Mike maybe you can take the next question from antonio heider also watching on facebook What's the best way to change social behavior when people don't listen contradict and argue, what's your view on fast social change?
What is the best way to change social behaviour when people don’t listen, contradict and argue?
Mike Ryan: Antonio asks that question? If antonio has the answer he has a job, okay, contact me with the answer to that question.
Look it it is very tough, human behavior is a wonderful thing, but it's sometimes very hard to understand what drives us.
Human behaviour is a wonderful thing.
Sometimes it is very hard to understand what drives us.
I think it's about persuasion when you're with colleagues and friends, and we've seen the arguments.
It’s about persuasion with colleagues and friends
and unfortunately a lot of the discussions we've had of late in many areas of our life, be it climate or politics, or COVID, they become very binary and it's good and bad, you're with us, you're against us.
We've entered into a kind of a coarse dialogue, on things in which we become ideologic and absolutist.
It’s become very binary, good and bad, with us or against us.
It’s become a coarse dialogue, idologic and absoluist
And unfortunately life is not like that, and life is about biology it's squishy and it's messy.
Life is not like that. Life is about biology, squishy and messy.
And there are no easy answers so we can take a view that well you're wrong because you won't socially distant or you don't believe in the vaccine but people very often have genuine concerns.
We can take a vew “Well you’re wrong because you won’t socially distance, or you don’t believe in the vaccine”.
Those concerns might not come from a place of good information, they may come from propaganda, but more often than that the person you're arguing with it has strong feelings that what they believe to be true is true, and that their views and their opinions are important, and they should be listened to.
Those concerns might not come from a place of good information.
Those concerns may come from propaganda.
But more often than not the person you argue has strong feelings that these things are true. They feel that what they believe to be true is true.
The difficulty is listening to those opinions when there's clear evidence that that is not the right thing to do, and it's really easy in that situation to either become aggressive, to become dismissive and then turn it into a battle of the facts, or a battle of the science, and it turns into this kind of discourse that that is not a dialogue anymore.
It's me shouting at you, you shouting at me.
"I'm right, no you're wrong.
It’s difficult to listen when you know there is clear evidence that this is not the right thing to do.
It can easily become aggressive and dismissive, a battle of the facts or a battle of the science.
That is not a dialogue any more. It’s me shouting at you, and you shouting at me.
"I'm right, no you're wrong.
" And my experience in epidemics and ebola and others it really does require stepping back and leaving leaving your ego at the door, leaving the need to be right or wrong at the door, all that matters in the end is we can leave the room and and people have an opportunity to think, or rethink.
From my experience with Ebola, and other epidemics, it requires stepping back, leaving your ego at the door.
What matters in the end is we leave the room and people have an opportunity to think, or rethink.
And when you have a discussion with someone else who you don't believe is behaving in the right way, don't expect them to all of a sudden come to some realization that you are now right and you're a guru and you've been right all along.
How many people in your life have ever announced that to you? Most of the time behavior changes comes when you're respectful, you give people the information, you give them facts, you tell them where they can find other facts, and leave them, and give them space to think it through.
Don’t expect them to come to some realization that you have been right all along - how many people have announced that to you?
Most often behaviour changes come when you’re respectful.
Give people
information,
facts
where they can find other facts
And leave them and give them space to think things through.
And if enough people are having those types of conversations, I believe society moves through a persuasive dialogue, and not through an ideologic slugfest which we seem to have reduced our societies to, across politics, and even on climate change, and other things.
I believe society moves through a persuasive dialogue, not through an ideologic slugfest.
We seem to have reduced our societies to an ideologic slugfest across politics, even on climate change, and other things.
So I do think we need to find another way to to have our discussions with each other, and within communities.
The other thing is within our community dialogues we've we've kind of lost also.
I think that ability to discuss things as communities, we've become more isolated in our own worlds, our own unitary families, and we are connected through social media.
We have also kind of lost community dialogues [in real life].
We have become isolated in our own worlds, and unitary families, and connected through social media.
And that's one of the great advantages now is that even though we might not be physically, we have communities and I do think we need to again generate discussion that is healthy, and not drive outcomes because we need to score a point to be right or to be wrong, and how we do that, generate a discussion where people can access the information they need.
That is one of the great advantages now. We need to
generate discussion that is healthy.
not drive outcomes, because we need to score a point, or to be right, or to be wrong.
By doing that we generate a discussion where people can access the information they need.
The other thing and I know you deal with this all the time alex and the work you do with the with the team here, I don't believe we should go after the bad messengers.
We go after the message not the messengers.
The other thing is, I don’t believe we should go after the bad messengers.
We go after the message, not the messengers.
I know you've been a great proponent of that here, getting good information out.
It's like a vaccine against the bad information we use a vaccine to get rid of the virus, we need good information to get rid of the bad information.
Getting good information out to get rid of the bad information.
Good information is like a vaccine against the bad information.
I don't think it's a good thing to be just saying we need to attack the message of, that's the wrong message I don't think that works in the long run so flooding this zone as I don't know if the person is from america but they say that in the in american football don't they.
"flood the zone" you know I don't know about american football but we need to flood that space, and if we leave vacuums, vacuums are very dangerous things when it comes to attitudes and information.
We need to fill the space with good information, with dialogue, and with persuasion, not vitriol and accusation and that for me takes longer, it's more frustrating, but when change comes it's real.
We need to fill the space with
good information
persuasion
dialogue
NOT with
vitriol
accusation
That takes longer, it’s frustrating, but when change comes, it’s real.
And we need to shift the mores of society in many societies.
We need to shift the mores of society - in many societies.
[mores = characteristic customs and conventions]
For example when you look at things like driving under the influence, and for many years you know driving under the influence of alcohol in some countries was entirely acceptable.
How did society change from that where you basically could put your car keys on the bar get drunk and then everyone expected you to drive home, to now if you walked into a bar and even showed car keys, the bartender would probably not serve you because it would be such a shock that someone would even think [to do that].
For many years it was acceptable to drink and drive. Now a bartender would likely refuse to serve you if you showed your car keys.
How does society move from a complete acceptance of a behavior to a completely different way of thinking about something?
How does society move from complete acceptance of a behaviour to a completely different way of thinking about something?
And we need to think about consequence, and when we start to think about the consequences of our actions, if we speed, go beyond the speed limit, if we drink and drive, and we start thinking about what speed it should be, or what the level of alcohol should be, and we have all these arguments.
If we think a little bit more about what are the consequences of those actions.
When a mother has to bury a daughter because they're killed at a pedestrian crossing by a drunk driver that's consequence, and when people start to think about consequences, I think they become more reasonable in at least discussing what what has led to those consequences.
We need to think about consequences.
When people start to think about consequences, when a mother has to bury a daugher because they’re killed at a pedestrian crossing by a drunk driver, that’s a consequence.
When people think about consequences that’s when they become more reasonable at least about those actions.
When you're stuck in the mire of I'm right you're wrong, and this is a safe level, and this is nothing, I think we get nowhere.
And the consequences right now of people not taking care are full ICUs, people dead before their time the long-term COVID haulers who are now struggling with long-term impacts of COVID, and more people dying than need to, or should die before we get to the year of vaccination.
And right now in this stretch and I would say it's at least four to six months before we have significant levels of vaccination going on anywhere.
We have to get through this and the only way we get through this is finding a way to behave that's functional and that reduces risks and actually avoids those awful consequences.
I would say it is at least four to six months before we have significant levels of vaccination going on anywhere.
We have to get through this.
The only way to get through this is to find a way to behave that’s functional, and reduces risks and actually avoids those awful consequences.
And I see it every night on TV or we see it in the newspapers those personal stories of the loss that people have suffered, and the virus that killed them came from somewhere, it came from the community, from us, and our behavior determines those consequences.
So reasonable respectful dialogue push good information.
We hear about personal stories of people that suffered and died. The virus that killed them came from somewhere.
The virus that killed thse people came from the community, it came from us. Our behavior determines whether other people die or survive.
don't expect your argument to win it's not about winning the argument.
It's about changing behavior and changing expectations around behavior.
I think if we take that approach we'll we'll bring more people with us on this journey.
And we may win less arguments but does that really matter.
Don’t expect to win the argument. It is not about winning the argument.
It is about changing behaviour and expectations for behaviour.
We’ll bring more people with us on this journey.
We may win less arguments - but does winning the arguments really matter?
[Shortened version of BLOG: How to talk to people who don’t listen, contradict, and argue - on COVID or climate change, politics, and many other things - Mike Ryan of the WHO]
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